Thermal-Buoyancy power plant / Thermisches Auftriebskraftwerk

Fork/Ableger/Spin-off from: Auftriebskraftwerk

I'm an English speaking American interested in the topic of the Auftriebskraftwerk (Rosch/GAIA buoyancy power plant).

I don't personally care one way or the other what language anyone uses in here, English, German, French, Spanish,... whatever, it's all easy enough to translate, if there is an actual interest in a topic, it's worth the bit of trouble, as if it were any trouble at all.

This thread is a little different in intent from the earlier thread: Auftriebskraftwerk in that I'm primarily interested in exploring the THERMAL aspects of this device or invention, which has been described from its earliest appearance as a "Stirling Engine" by some who appeared to be knowledgeable in regard the particulars of its construction and operation.

I am also not very interested in the Rosch/GAIA/Ki-Teck/Save the Planet etc. etc. organizations, businesses, corporations, groups, or whatever and their day to day activities, developments, business dealings, ethics, finances, corporate structure, board memberships, credibility, or any similar or related aspects of this device that others seem to be preoccupied with.

My personal view about this "buoyancy" generator is that if it works, or even APPEARS to SOMETIMES work, AT ALL, as a "self running" machine, whether producing any "excess" power output or not, the most likely explanation is that this is due to the conversion of HEAT into mechanical WORK. I am willing to entertain arguments to the contrary, but I have been researching and studying this topic for some time, have a pretty solid background in how Stirling Heat engines operate, as well as training is other heat/energy manipulating devices; heat pumps, cryocoolers, HVAC, refrigeration, etc. so convincing me that there is some OTHER explanation could prove to be rather difficult.

I'm also not interested in patenting, selling, or marketing the device or any variation or "improved" version. If anything, I would build my own. Mostly just out of curiosity, to see if it could work, or not, and/or to test my assumptions.

If it is ACTUALLY a THERMAL generator, the same as, or similar to a Stirling Heat engine, then it appears that those active in the development MAY not even be fully aware of this, or fully convinced of this themselves. Or perhaps they are keeping "the secret" under wraps, or intentionally diverting attention away from this rather obvious explanation, perhaps due to the fact that the Stirling engine was invented in 1816, so patenting the device on that basis would be problematic in terms of "prior art", aside from the "perpetual motion" issue.

A THERMAL explanation, however, has long been hinted at, and sometimes, by some, explicitly stated. For example:

Where does the energy come from?
Similar to a heat exchanger, the Kinetic Power Plant (KPP) system transforms energy.

Upon introduction of heat exchangers (heat pumps) to the market, they were initially thought to violate thermodynamic laws. However, we now understand how they work and have accepted the method of amplifying energy by using the heat potential in our surroundings.

The major technical innovation in a Kinetic Power Plant is a next-generation generator, with a COP <20, that requires less torque to produce electrical energy compared to a similar generator. Rosch Innovations scientists refer to it as an electromagnetic resonance reaction induced by the B3 field.

Rosch Innovations will provide a more in-depth explanation of the technology’s principle to actual clients or investors, but there are also some KPP secrets that can never be disclosed to anyone.

source: https://www.zilverstroom.com/english/ (emphasis added)

also: in 2014 the device was described as a Stirling Engine (Stirlingmotors) http://www.overunity.de/1797/rosch-auftriebskraftwerk-gaia-auftriebs-kraftwerk-wie-es-funktioniert

Having studied and built Stirling engines for about 29 years, I came to this same conclusion independently.

Assuming the device is a kind of Heat Engine or THERMAL engine, several possibilities for making various modifications and improvements present themselves. This is the main area I would like to explore, especially for or with anyone interested in a DIY (Do it yourself) type project.

My introduction to Stirling engines was in the 1980's upon reading this publication which was provided to me by a friend in the form of a mimeographed copy, just a few years after its publication:

https://www.echocommunity.org/resources/5f09d3ec-66fa-4f85-b78f-70f0d5ed9c85

A comparison between the "buoyancy generator" and a Stirling engine and/or Heat Pump (or some combination thereof) may not be immediately obvious, but it is my aim to show that there are parallels and/or similarities, at least in principle.

There are a few points worth taking note of in this report:

https://gaia.ws1.eu/files/doc/leaks/Evaluation-of-KPP-Technology.pdf

How the buoyancy canisters are filled:

"A special system of hoses and valves, introduces air to the containers at the
bottom of the circuit. The air expands as its depth decreases; finally displacing
all the water at the top of the tank."

This image is provided to illustrate the point:

“Water Jet” at containers
With this enhancement, the exiting water from the container, as it rises in the
water tank, helps to propel the container upward. The water has to leave the
container, since the air inside the container tends to expand as it rises, displacing
water in the process. The following drawing illustrates the concept.

Pulsing air at the compressor

“Rosch” claims that the air from the compressor is not injected continuously to the
containers, but “pulsed” or only when most efficient...

The various speculations about how the buoyancy device apparently does the "impossible" contrary to known laws of science, I think, can be ignored. The fact is, the writers of the report basically confess that they haven't got a clue, though believing they were able to rule out any possibility of fraud.


Included in the report is this thermal image of the compressor:





However no specific or general THERMAL evaluation of the system was undertaken or reported on. The purpose of the thermal imaging was merely to look for the heat signature of any possible "hidden wires".


This is an oversight, in that HEAT is certainly a form of energy, therefore the movement of heat into or out of the system needs to be taken into account in such an energy audit or evaluation.

At the very end of this video, literally at the last second or two it can be seen that there is a transition in the air line from flexible rubber hose to steal or cast iron pipe before going down through the water to the bottom of the tank.

Free Energy - Kinetic Power Plant public demonstration of start up and operation using air and water

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Of course, metal pipe conducts heat much more readily than rubber hose.

The hot compressed air then would be immediately quenched by the water in the tank, transferring the "heat of compression", cooling the air, allowing it to contract while heating up the water. Prior to that, the rubber hose would have a tendency to retain heat in the compressed hot air until it reached the metal pipe submerged in water.

In connection with this observation, there is another interesting "effect" mentioned in the literature:

The "Proell Effect"






another significant point is that the buoyancy canisters themselves were, at least originally, also steel:







Of course, steel, as an excellent conductor of heat can act to transfer heat in either direction. From the hot air in the steel pipe to the water, or from the hot water to the cold expanding air.

The direction of heat transfer depends upon the relative temperatures, just as it does in any other heat pump or refrigeration system or heat exchanger in a Stirling heat engine.

also worth noting above is that the compressed air is fed into the canisters through a "pressure reducing valve".





Anyone familiar with HVAC systems, heat pumps, refrigerators, or air conditioning could explain the significance of a "pressure reducing valve" as used in such systems. (otherwise known as an "expansion valve" as it is the restriction in the line that maintains the pressure of the compressed refrigerant on one side of the system, the hot side or condenser, but once the refrigerant passes through this restriction or valve the refrigerant is free to expand, cool, and absorb heat on the evaporator side of the system.

The above textual information was taken from the documents displayed in this video:

Генераторы РОШ в 2019 новые горизонты

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Befor going on, I should touch on the significance also, of a mention of "the Proell Effect" in conection with the buoyancy generator.

The "Proell effect" is a term that was coined to describe or refer to the theories of Wayne Proell.

I happen to have his book on my nightstand:


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The subject matter of the book is how to build a Stirling engine or heat engine that is capable of exceeding the "Carnot efficiency limit" or in other words, how a heat engine could be constructed that would violate the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

That is, "the Proell effect" is, as far as I'm aware, associated exclusively with the topic of Stirling heat engines, or more specifically, a heat engine build or designed, based on the theories contained in Wayne Proell's book, which I have here as a reference.

Thia is not intended to be an exhaustive review of Preoll's book or the so-called "Proell effect".

So skipping ahead to the final chapter, on page 408 we read:

A superengine in this chapter means an engine which will convert all ingested heat into work: a 100% conversion engine. As we discussed before, this requires a combination of a heat pump and a heat engine; heat engines alone, however efficient, are of limited excitement to us who see that superengines are the future.

An additional specification, gone into at some length, for several pages, is that "its intake for addition of heat from the environment" must be "below the environmental temperature". "Now we can design our system so that the heat deficiency needed to supply the pump comes from the environmental heat allowed to flow into the heat sink"

So far, I have not found any direct reference anywhere in Proell's book to Nikola Tesla, but Proell's words here echo precisely what Tesla wrote about heat pumps and heat engines in his "Increasing Human Energy" article published in Century Magazine in 1900.

That is, that by combining the features of a heat pump and a heat engine into one machine, the Second Law of thermodynamics could be circumvented and that this would entail the creation and maintenance of an artificial "cold hole" for the surounding environmental heat to flow into.

It seems apparent that the buoyancy cylinder being continually injected with compressed cooled air which is allowed to expand while absorbing the surounding ambient heat, constitutes such a "cold hole" or "sink" as both Tesla and Proell describe.

Tesla included in his article this illustration of the proposed device, which coincidently happens to quite resemble our buoyancy cylinder:


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The text reads:

Conceive, for the sake of illustration, an
enclosure T, as illustrated in diagram b, such
that energy could not be transferred across it
except through a channel or path O, and that, by
some means or other, in this enclosure a medium
were maintained which would have little energy,
and that on the outer side of the same there would
be the ordinary ambient medium with much energy.
Under these assumptions the energy would
flow through the path O, as indicated by the arrow,
and might then be converted on its passage into
some other form of energy. The question was,
Could such a condition be attained? Could we
produce artificially such a "sink" for the energy of
the ambient medium to flow in? Suppose that an
extremely low temperature could be maintained by
some process in a given space; the surrounding
medium would then be compelled to give off heat,
which could be converted into mechanical or other
form of energy, and utilized. By realizing such a
plan, we should be enabled to get at any point of
the globe a continuous supply of energy, day and
night

The resemblance is not only in appearance, but also in function.

Revisiting this:

Zitat von zaeldzaeld schrieb:
The Auftriebskraftwerk has nothing to do with a Sterling motor.

The Sterling motor uses temperature/pressure differences to move a piston. The Auftriebskraftwerk does not use temperature differences at all.

I completely disagree with the above. Temperature and pressure differences are certainly contributing factors which should not be ignored.

It simply compresses air which is pumped into the water tank (against the water pressure due to the water height). That's all..

So there are pressure differences.

Of course the air is getting warmed during the compression, but it also cools down when it expands during the way up through the water in the Auftriebskraftwerk.

So there are temperature differences.

I could see where what you say above might be true or partly true under certain circumstances or situations. For example, if the air were not compressed enough to drive off sufficient heat for it to cool while expanding then there would not be enough temperature difference for the air to draw heat out of the water while rising and expanding.

A similar situation might arise if the tank of water is colder at the top due to weather conditions such as a cold rain and wind cooling the top of the tank.

In such situations the rising "bubbles" might loose more energy than they are able to take in and so cool and shrink and buoyancy might be reduced, but in such situations the temperature differences between the air and water in the tank and the surrounding environment certainly DO factor in.

In the best case, all the additional temperature energy stays in the air through the way up, and loses its energy due to expansion until it reaches the room temperature from the beginning before the compressor, when the air bubble arrives at the top of the water.
Again, this depends entirely upon the relative temperature between the air as it rises and the water which way the heat/energy will flow.

The relative temperatures will factor in as far as the energy balance and if the expanding gas is gaining or loosing energy on the way up. If the water is hotter then the expanding air can take in heat gaining energy, expand and increase buoyancy, if the air is warmer than the water than the air will be cooled down, loose energy, shrink, and buoyancy is reduced.

Without taking the relative temperatures into account, the device would be prone to inexplicable erratic behavior and unexplained failures, sometimes working and sometimes not, literally, depending on the weather and which way the wind blows.

In the worst case, the temperature gets partly lost at the compressor (the hull of the compression chamber gets warm), and partly it warms the water in the tank during the way up - resulting in the effect that the air is getting colder than the original room temperature, so the air bubble in the tank is smaller at the top of the water and thus produces less buoyancy, which reduces the effectivity of the whole machine.

Again, it depends. This could be true or partially true depending on how much the air is compressed, how much heat is retained in the air or driven off by fans, what is the relative temperature between the compressor and air? Is it a balmy day or frigid weather? The relative temperature will determine how effective the cooling of the compressor with just a simple fan might be, so does the air go into the tank hot or cold? Will the air draw energy from the water or loose energy? Will it expand or contract? Gain buoyancy or loose buoyancy? Everything is dependent on the relative temperatures which way the energy will flow, so the relative temperatures would need to be monitored and the system adjusted accordingly to compensate, otherwise you have a situation where people are saying; "I don't understand, it was working fine yesterday, call off the demonstration".

Yesterday it was hot and humid, today it is cold and breezy.

That's why i made the suggestion to simplify the machine, to get rid of all these complications coming with gas compression: Instead of pumping air into the water, just pump water up to the top, fill the water into containers, let the containers move through air downwards and let the movement drive a generator. The generator produces current to run the water pump and additional current for free.

Personally, I don't think that would EVER work.

The buoyancy generator maybe works SOMETIMES by drawing in ambient heat from the surrounding environment under ideal conditions. A gravity engine has no means of taking in any EXTRA outside heat/energy, and never will under any conditions.

The Auftriebskraftwerk could operate, sometimes, in theory, under ideal circumstances, by compressing the air and driving off enough heat so that when the air is injected into the floats there is enough of a temperature difference that the air can take in heat from the water and expand rapidly. Then you might get that "water jet" effect if the temperature difference is great enough and the openings in the canister are small enough to build up water pressure. Then buoyancy can increase all the way up, especially if the water is hot at the top of the tank.

Done right, with an understanding about what is REALLY going on, maybe it could work.

Transferring heat from the compressor to the top of the water tank by water cooling the compressor with the tank water would reduce the work load on the compressor while simultaneously increasing the buoyancy of the canisters as they rise up into hotter and hotter water nearer the top of the tank.

Unfortunately, it seems, nobody has been paying any attention to this, or those who have were ignored, so it is all hit or miss, trial and error, and nobody has any real idea what's going on. Sometimes it works accidently, because an iron pipe was used instead of a rubber hose, and sometimes not. Nobody knows why.

It all becomes clear and perfectly understandable once it is recognized that the Auftriebskraftwerk is actually a HEAT ENGINE.

Is this just a coincidence?







Thailand has a very stable warm temperature that varies very little throughout the year, almost all the time.



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Of all the possible locations in the world. why choose Thailand as a location for a Buoyancy generator?

For a HEAT ENGINE that depends on a stable supply of heat from the surrounding environment I can understand.

This is something I think might be worth trying, to improve reliability and efficiency. I've left the whole chain of buoyancy buckets and generator out of the drawing just for clarity to illustrate only the thermal properties:







The changes from the conventional system include:

1) Water cooling the compressor

This should cool the compressor much more rapidly and efficiently that a fan. It also allows for heat recovery well above ambient temperatures which can be transferred back to the water tank.


2) The air delivery pipe passing down through the tank has some additional bends in it, or could be in the form of a coil for improved heat exchange

3) Heat of compression is retained within the compressed air as much as possible so that additional heat of compression can be transferred to the tank at a temperature much higher than ambient. To achieve this, the compressor, aside from being water cooled, might be, is necessary, constructed out of ceramic or perhaps some high temperature alloy that can withstand the higher operating temperature.

4) It might be worthwhile to run the system at higher air pressure. The higher the pressure, the more heat that can be extracted and transferred and also the greater the (potential) temperature drop as the air expands. This could have a number of advantages: the colder the air injected into the tank, the more environmental (ambient) heat it can absorb. Also this will help chill the cooling water being drawn off to cool the compressor. Colder cooling water results in more efficient compression.

The "heat of compression" is derived from two sources, first the "work" put into the air by the compressor or the compression process itself, but also the "solar" ambient heat contained in the air. Water cooling the compressor and returning that "heat of compression" to the water tank turns "low grade" ambient heat into "High grade" heat while also reclaiming the "Work" that also appears in the compressed air which is also transferred to the tank water.

After about 35:18 they begin draining the water out of the tank.

The comments regarding the water temperature at this point are interesting 39:00 to 39:40:

Free Energy June 2015 Rosch 15KW Rosch KPP 15 kW Free Energy System Demo June 20, 2015,

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Paraphrased:

"Take your thermal camera and check, the water should now be very hot, that could be the hidden part (energy) you are looking for"

Sorry, that should have been from around timestamp 35:00 apparently. when they bring out the firehose and start draining the tank.

Anyway, it appears they did not have the thermal camera handy, maybe they figured it was probably not important anyway. Interesting that he seemed sure that the water would be HOT and could be the source of the "missing" or extra energy.

As far as I know this was never followed up on, but it certainly would have been interesting.

I've seen quite a few attempts at building small desktop models, like in this video, which I think is a great idea and should work and would be relatively inexpensive.

Пневмогидравлический поплавковый генератор (типа Рош). Pneumohydraulic float generator (Rosch type)

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The problem though, is that so far I have not found any examples of such small models where the thermodynamic element is understood, or even suspect as a possible factor, so instead of a high pressure compressor of any kind a small air PUMP may be used and without any expansion or pressure reducing valve, so there is no significant rise in temperature of the air passing through the pump unrestricted and no temperature drop in the air after passing through the pressure reducing valve which doesn't exist, so there is no temperature difference between the air filling the canisters and the water, or between the water and the surrounding environment that would generate any heat movement into the system.

Afterall, generating high pressure consumes more energy so a simple air pump should be more efficient anyway, right? I suppose that is the reasoning And why use such an oversized compressor that requires a pressure reducing valve anyway when just as much air can be pumped to the bottom of the tank easily with a much smaller compressor and no pressure reduction necessary. Why use a compressor that delivers too much air at too high a pressure in the first place?

Just use a bicycle pump. Why not?

Вечный двигатель? Генератор РОШ? пневмогидравлический генератор? а работает ли? + Kingroon KP7.

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Astonishingly, it ALMOST works anyway, making a few revolutions on its own without the assistance of the auxiliary hand pump.

This next guy at least uses a pretty good size refrigerator compressor, but doesn't use a pressure reduction valve of any kind, so no real pressure is developed and no significant temperature differences is created anywhere in the system

Usina flutuante caseira

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A key component in any heat pump, refrigerator, or air conditioner is some form of restriction in the line to maintain the pressure higher on one side of the system than on the other in order to establish a temperature difference by removing heat from the high pressure line so that the air (or other refrigerant) will get cold when it passes through the valve or restriction over into the low pressure side.

None of the small models I've seen incorporate this essential component, and yet some of them, reportedly. almost work. Close but no cigar.

But it might not take much to tip the scales and have an actual small working model.

If a technology actually works it will usually work at any scale, normal size, giant size or miniaturized.

Stirling Engine Kit - Micro LTD

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Making the World's Smallest Beam Stirling Engine

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Heat engines can be miniaturized. If it actually is a heat engine then building a small model shouldn't be a problem.

One thermodynamic question that has been on my mind is, with buoyancy, is the air in the "bubble" doing any thermodynamic "work", or is the work all done by gravity? Is the water doing work on the air pushing it up, or is the air doing work on the water pushing it aside, or does it all balance out in some way?

If the air is doing "work" on the water, as WORK is defined in a thermodynamics context, then there should be an energy transfer that would result in the air cooling down or at least loosing energy in that way, but if gravity alone is the source of energy that produces bouyancy then there may not be any energy or "work" transfer going on, at least not on the part of the air bubbling up through the water.

A difficult and somewhat perplexing and ambiguous question.

One thing though seems clearer and more straightforward to me though; if the air injected into the canisters is very COLD, and the air expands inside the rigid canisters creating internal pressure that pushes out jets of water through the openings then I think in that circumstance the gas is most definitely doing "work" pushing the water out of the canister, this should cause the air to cool since energy is being transfered out of the air.

But, simultaneously if the canisters are gradually rising up into warmer and warmer water then the air will also be taking in energy in the form of heat, while simultaneously loosing energy in the form of "work", this would have the effect of maintaining the air at a more or less stable or constant temperature as the energy taken in as heat is counterbalanced by the energy going out in the form of work, so the internal energy of the air, reflected or indicated by the temperature would stay more or less constant.

In the field of thermodynamics, as it relates to heat engines, such a constant or stable temperature gas expansion balanced by an equal amount of work output has the technical designation "isothermal". (Constant temperature)

What this amounts to is the transformation of HEAT into WORK which is the very definition of a "heat engine".

Now if my memory serves me correctly, in my review of the published documentation about this bouyancy generator, I remember reading, "we call this ISOTHERMAL...".

Not sure now if it said isothermal expansion or what exactly, I'll have to try and find the reference, but there we have yet another reference from an "official" source putting the working principle of the KPP device into a context which doesn't really make sense unless we are talking about a HEAT ENGINE.

I will try to find the reference and post it here when I find the time, but it may take a while as I have a lot of other things I need to get done today.

It was in this video:

screenshot:

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KPP - Kinetic Power Plant (Long Animation), Ki-TECH.Global/Save The Planet AG

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Just for a quick overview of "isothermal" here is an AI summary via Google

Search Labs | AI Overview

In a heat engine, isothermal expansion is a process where the working substance (like a gas) expands while its temperature remains constant, drawing heat from a reservoir to maintain the temperature. This contrasts with adiabatic expansion, where no heat transfer occurs. Isothermal expansion is a key component in idealized thermodynamic cycles like the Carnot cycle, and it's where the engine does work on its surroundings by pushing a piston, for example.

Elaboration:
Constant Temperature:
During isothermal expansion, the working substance is in thermal contact with a heat reservoir, and heat flows in to offset the cooling effect of expansion, keeping the temperature constant.

Work Done:
As the substance expands, it pushes against a piston or similar mechanism, doing work on the surroundings.

Idealized Process:
Isothermal expansion is often idealized as an extremely slow process, allowing for continuous heat transfer and maintaining thermal equilibrium with the reservoir.

So, you have a gas, in a "reservoir" expanding and doing work while absorbing heat and this is a necessarily a very slow process.

Sounds about right to me, and very descriptive of the air expansion in the KPP system.

More later. but just a note, isothermal expansion is an "idealized" process because under normal conditions it is quite difficult to achieve in any kind of ordinary heat engine. Piston engines, such as the Stirling heat engine reciprocate at anywhere from 100 to several thousand RPM. Hardly a "slow" process, but IDEALLY, isothermal expansion would convert 100% of the heat intake into "work".

another AI blurb:

In summary, while isothermal expansion of an ideal gas can, in theory, convert all the heat absorbed into work in a single expansion (non-cyclic), this is not possible in a cyclic process like a heat engine. The second law of thermodynamics limits the efficiency of any heat engine, preventing 100% conversion of heat into work.

But is isothermal expansion in the KPP a "cyclic process". that is, does the piston driven by the expanding air have to return to the top dead center position?

Well, eventually I guess. The air bubbles out the top of the tank back to atmosphere and maybe makes its way around the world but eventually gets recompressed by the compressor to be put back into the bottom of the tank.

OK so it isn't 100% efficient, but what are we talking about in terms of efficiency; How much of the Net ambient heat is converted into work?

The FREE ambient heat resident in the air/atmosphere? That inexhaustible reservoir of SOLAR energy this system is apparently tapping into?