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Türken bei der SS

519 Beiträge, Schlüsselwörter: Türken, SS
mannix
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Türken bei der SS

09.07.2006 um 23:30
-Auch aus dem Grunde, das er für seine Militärkolonnen, für den schon langegeplanten
Krieg, vernünftige Strassen brauchte. -

lol


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Türken bei der SS

09.07.2006 um 23:35
@mannix

Was ist daran so witzig?


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caná
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Türken bei der SS

09.07.2006 um 23:36
Türken bei der ss....

Hitler hat schicht und einfach jeden nicht Deutsch tötenlassen, von daher wär dies nicht möglich.


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mannix
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Türken bei der SS

09.07.2006 um 23:52
@darthotzmk

nja nix......aber welche normalen menschen konnten sich damals schonleisten
ein auto zu besitzen.........


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Türken bei der SS

09.07.2006 um 23:59
z.B. welche die durch die neuen Machthabern profitierten.


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mannix
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Türken bei der SS

10.07.2006 um 00:09
das waren aber sehr wenige......guck dir mal fotos von den damaligen
autobahnenan.....da herrschte gähnende leere!


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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 13:27
Werte Freundinnen und Freunde des gepflegten historischen Halbwissens.
MancheDiskussionen in diesem Forum sind einfach ätzend, da mischt sich Unwissenheit,historische Ungenauigkeit und mögliche politische Absicht mit einer allgemeinen uferlosenLaberigkeit. Dabei ist manches durch den Blick in ein paar Bücher oder auf Internetseitenso schnell geklärt.

Hier eine Aufstellung der Waffen-SS-Divisionen mit Anteilen"ausländischer Arbeitnehmer":

5. SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking"
Niederländer,Flamen, Norweger, Dänen, Esten

7. SS-Freiwilligen-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen"
"Volksdeutsche" aus den Balkanstaaten

11.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Nordland"
Niederländer, Dänen, Norweger,Ungarn, Rumänen

13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Handschar" (kroatische Nr.1)
Kroaten, Bosnier

14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (galizische Nr.1,ukrainische Nr.1)
Ukrainer

15. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettischeNr.1)
Letten

17. SS-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Götz von Berlichingen"
"Volksdeutsche" aus den Balkanstaaten

18.SS-Freiwilligen-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Horst Wessel"
"Volksdeutsche" aus Ungarn

19. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (lettische Nr.2)
Letten

20.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (estnische Nr.1)
Esten

21.Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Skanderbeg" (albanische Nr.1)
Kosovo-Albaner

22. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division "Maria Theresia"
"Volksdeutsche" ausUngarn

23. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Kama" (kroatische Nr. 2)
Bosnier,"Volksdeutsche" aus Balkanstaaten (Aufstellung nie vollzogen, mit 13. "Handschar"verschmolzen).

23. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzer-Grenadier-Division "Nederland"
Niederländer

24. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS "Karstjäger"
Südtiroler

25. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Hunyadi" (ungarische Nr.1)
Ungarn

26. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Hungaria/Gömbös?"(ungarische Nr.2)
Ungarn

27. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division "Langemarck" (flämische Nr.1)
Flamen,Finnen

28. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzer-Grenadier-Divisionen "Wallonien"
Wallonen

29. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr.1)
Russen

29.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (italienische Nr.1)
Italiener

30.Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (russische Nr.2)
Russen

31.SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division
Ungarn, Slowaken

33.Waffen-Kavallerie-Division der SS (ungarische Nr.3)
Ungarn (Aufstellung geplant 45)

33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS "Charlemagne" (französische Nr.1)
Franzosen

34. SS-Grenadier-Division "Landstorm Nederland"
Niederländer

37. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division "Lützow"
Ungarn

Darüberhinaus gab es etwa 20 britische Angehörige der Waffen-SS, rekrutiert ausKriegsgefangenen.

Sorry, Leute, keine Türken!

Die militärische Qualitätder einzelnen Divisionen war sehr unterschiedlich, ebenso ihre Behandlung im Rahmen derWaffen-SS - da wurde schon sehr deutlich zwischen "Germanen" und osteuropäischen"Untermenschen" unterschieden. Dies detailliert zu schildern, würde hier den Rahmensprengen.
Verwendete Quellen:
deutsche und englische Publikationen über dieWaffen-SS

PS: Die immer wieder gern zitierten "Indischen" oder "Arabischen"Legionen waren kleine Gruppen, die der Wehrmacht unterstanden, nicht der SS. Sie wurdenzwar ausgebildet, hatten aber keinen militärischen Wert und kamen nicht zum Einsatz.


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mannix
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 14:20
naja halbwissen......hin oder her.....
in ssdivisionen waren nie immerausschliesslich die länder beeinhaltet, die angegeben sind.
das stammpersonal wargrösstenteils deutscher herkunft.....in der
ss division nederland waren sogar britenim sanitätsdienst.......bei den wallonen waren auch luxenburger dabei, bei der wikinggabs spanier......etc


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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 14:48
es gab einen Osttürkischen Waffenverband der Waffen-SS, der aber nie Divisionsstärkeerreichte.

Ergänzung zu Mannix: In der SS-Division Wiking gab es auch Schweizerund US-Amerikaner!


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derpate
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 16:06
Natürlich gab es in den Reihen der Waffen-SS Verbrecher Türken ...


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sütcüü
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 16:57
und????


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derpate
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:02
@sütcüü
das und ????
,ist ja mal wieder Typisch Türkisch!

nix und!!!!!!das war eine feststellung:)


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goldman
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:02
@Doors: Schön gegoogelt^^

"Sorry, Leute, keine Türken!

Diemilitärische Qualität der einzelnen Divisionen war sehr unterschiedlich, ebenso ihreBehandlung im Rahmen der Waffen-SS - da wurde schon sehr deutlich zwischen "Germanen" undosteuropäischen "Untermenschen" "

--> Aber weiter oben steht doch, DAß Türken inkleinerer Zahl dabei waren!

Man sollte vielleicht noch dazu sagen, daß der Kampfgegen den Bolschewismus damit von Anfang an ein europäischer war und alle westlichen (undsüd/östlichen) Völker betroffen hat und es immer noch tut.


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Obrien
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:08
Ohweh Goldman,denkst du immer noch rein in den Osten und raus mit dem Iwan....?Les malden aktuellen Spiegel;)


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goldman
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:10
Den Spiegel habe ich endlich abbestellt. Und ich fühle mich jetzt besser : )

Ich denke nicht so, jedes Volk braucht seine Heimat und hat ein Recht darauf aberMillionen nichtdeutsche freiwillige alleine aus Mitteleuropa (die Hitler allerdingszunächst ablehnte!!!) sprechen ihre eigene Sprache.


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greenline
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:37
damals waren sowohl auch tuerken und inder in der ss, noch heute haben leider mancheindier sympatie zu denn VERBRECHERISCHEN nazi idiologie, ich hoere offter ahh du hast indeutschland gelebt "wir moegen hitler,oder hitler was ein gossartigerman, nazis warenstark) das liegt daran das sie keine ahnung haben, was fuer eine kranke idiologie dasnazitum ist,es ist eine sauerei milionen von menschen zu toden, wegen einer idiologie,das hohre ich von muslems und auch hindus

da gab ein subash chandra bose derhilfe bei hitler suchte um die englander aus indien zu werffen, es kamm zum gluek anders

liest selbt auf english
Netaji In Germany During WW II

A report ofHitler's visit to the Indian Legion headquarters in Dresden was given by Shantaram VishnuSamanta (one of the Legionaries) during a press interview in India, after his releasefrom an internment camp. According to his statement, Hitler addressed the soldiers of theLegion after Netaji had left for East Asia. He spoke in German and his speech wastranslated into Hindustani by an interpreter.

He said " You are fortunatehaving been born in a country of glorious cultural traditions and a colossal manpower. Iam impressed by the burning passion with which you and your Netaji seek to liberate yourcountry from foreign domination. Your Netaji's status is even greater than mine. While Iam the leader of eighty million Germans, he is the leader of 400 million Indians. In allrespects he is a greater leader and a greater general than myself. I salute him, andGermany salutes him. It is the duty of all Indians to accept him as their führer and obeyhim implicitly. I have no doubt that if you do this, his guidance will lead India verysoon to freedom."

A statement by another soldier of the Indian Legion, whoremains anonymous, has a somewhat different version. It stated that both Netaji andHitler took a joint salute of the Indian Legion and a German infantry. In addition tocomments cited earlier, Hitler was reported to have made these remarks as well " Germancivilians, soldiers and free Indians! I take this opportunity to welcome your actingFührer, Herr Subhash Chandra Bose. He has come here to guide all those free Indians wholove their country and are determined to free it from foreign yoke. It is too much for meto dare to give you any instructions or advice because you are sons of a free country,and you would naturally like to obey implicitly the accredited leader of your own land."

Netaji was to leave Germany on 8 February 1943. On 26 January, "Independence Dayfor India," there was a great party in Berlin. On 28 January, which was set aside forobservance as the "Legion Day" in honor of the Indian Legion, he addressed the Legion forthe last time. It is believed that his departure was kept secret from his army. So, therewere no visible emotions among the men; no gesture of a farewell.

The impressionNetaji was leaving at the Free India Center was that he was going on a prolonged tour. Sothere were no signs of any anxiety. Except for a few top-ranking German officers and hisclosest aides, hardly anybody was aware that within a week-and-a-half he would beembarking on a perilous journey: a submarine voyage through mine-infested waters to theother side of the world.

In his absence, Nambiar settled down in his job as hissuccessor and soon gained respect of the Legionaries.

Two months after Netaji'sdeparture, as a result of discussion between the German Army Command and the Free IndiaCenter, it was decided to transfer the Legion from Koenigsbrueck to a coastal region inHolland, to involve it in a practical coastal defense training. It was also in accordancewith Netaji's wishes. He had often expressed a desire to give his troops, wheneverpossible, some training in coastal defense.

After the first battalion was givena hearty send-off, an untoward incident happened within the legion; two companies of thesecond battalion refused to move. It was soon found out that there were three mainreasons for staging this minor rebellion. Some Legionaries were unhappy that they werenot promoted, but their names had to be put on the waiting list; some simply did not wantto leave Koenigsbrueck; some were influenced by a rumor that Netaji had abandoned themand had gone off leaving them entirely in German hands, who were now going to use them inthe Western Front, instead of sending them to the East to fight for India's liberation.

However, the rebellion was soon quelled after a team of NCOs visited theofficials of the Free India Center in Berlin and obtained clarification regarding therebel Legionaries' grievances. The team went back to the camp and assured the men thatthey were not being sent to fight a war but were there purely for practical trainingpurposes according to Netaji's wishes; that the promotions were not being passed up, theywould follow in due course; and that Netaji had not abandoned them, and they would beinformed about his whereabouts and plans as soon as possible. In pursuance of militarydiscipline, the ringleaders of this act of insubordination were sent to prison camps fora specified period.

The Legion was stationed in the coastal areas of Holland forfive months. Afterwards, there was a decision to move it to the coastal area of Bordeauxin France from the mouth of the Girond, opposite the fortification of Foyan to the Bay ofArcachon. The Legion was taking charge here.

The stay in France was utilized togive the Legionaries a thorough training in the weaponry required for the defense of theAtlantic Wall. In the spring of 1944, the first batch of twelve Indians were promoted toofficers. Field Marshal Rommel, who took charge of the Atlantic Wall, once visited thearea where the Indian contingent was located. Ganpulay writes "After having seen thework carried out by the Indians, he exclaimed: "I am pleasantly surprised to find that inspite of very little training in coastal defense, the work done here is fairlysatisfactory." While departing, he said to the Indian soldiers: "I am glad to see youhave done good work; I wish you and your leader all the good luck!"

In thespring of 1944, one company of the Legion was sent to North Italy at the request of someofficers who were seeking an opportunity to confront the British forces.


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greenline
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:41
hier noch die geschichte subash chandra boese
Subhash Chandra Bose

Netajiposter in Thiruvananthapuram

Subhas Chandra Bose (January 23, 1897 - August 18,1945) also known as Netaji, was a prominent leader of the movement to win independencefrom British rule. Bose helped organize and later lead the Indian National Army puttogether with Indian prisoners-of-war and plantation workers from Singapore and SoutheastAsia.

Early life
He was educated at the Protestant European School and theRavenshaw Collegiate School in Cuttack, now in Orissa, the Presidency College, Calcutta,the Scottish Church College, Calcutta and the University of Cambridge . He resigned fromthe prestigious Indian Civil Service, despite placing fourth on the merit list, to jointhe freedom movement. Bose was once president of the Indian National Congress. He waselected for a second term against the wishes of Mahatma Gandhi, who supported PattabhiSitaramayya. Although Bose won the election, Gandhi's continued opposition led to theresignation of the Working Committee which further put pressure on Bose to finallyresign. After having left the Congress Bose formed a separate party, the All IndiaForward Bloc.

Actions during the Second World War
In Germany
At thestart of World War II, Bose traveled to Germany where he joined the Special Bureau forIndia under Adam von Trott zu Solz, broadcasting on the German-sponsored Azad Hind Radio.He founded the Free India Centre in Berlin and established the Indian Legion, (consistingof some 4500 soldiers) from Indian prisoners of war who had previously fought for theBritish in North Africa. The Azad Hind legion was attached to the Waffen SS, and theyswore their allegiance to Hitler and Bose for the independence of India. Recent researchhas shown that after the Normandy landings, the French resistance and military openlyshot unarmed and surrendered Indian legionaries who had tried to escape to neutralSwitzerland, in defiance of the norms of the Geneva Convention in 1944. Though there werea few incidents of the rape which its German liaison officers claimed that they wereunable to control, on the whole it was a disciplined unit.

Bose had openlycriticised Hitler's treatment of Jews, annulment of democratic institutions in Germanyand Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union.

Disappointed with the support forIndian independence from Hitler, he travelled by submarine around the Cape of Good Hopeto Imperial Japan, which helped him to raise his army. This was the onlycivilian-transfer across two different submarines of two different navies in World WarII.

In Japan
A testament to Bose's organizational acumen, the IndianNational Army consisted of some 85000 regular troops, a separate women's army unit namedafter Rani Lakshmi Bai (in a regular army, the women's army unit was the first of itskind in Asia), who gave her life in the First War of Independence in 1857. These wereunder the aegis of a regular government, with its own currency, court and civil code,named the "Provisional Government of Free India" (or the Arzi Hukumate Azad Hind) andrecognised by nine states: Germany, Japan, Italy, Croatia, Nationalist China, Siam,Burma, Manchukuo and the Philippines. On the declaration of its formation in Singapore,President Eamon de Valera of the neutral Irish Free State sent a note of congratulationsto Bose. This government had participated as a delegate or observer in theJapanese-controlled so-called Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.

En routeto India, some of Bose's troops assisted in the Japanese victory over the British in thebattles of Arakan and Meiktila, along with the Burmese National Army led by Ba Maw andAung San. In the Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal and India'snortheastern towns of Kohima and Imphal, where the Provisional Government wasestablished, the I.N.A. was forced to pull back due to sudden withdrawal of Japanese aircover with Japan's retreat following the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Collaborationist or Patriot?
Though his role in collaborating with the Axis hasbeen criticised by many commentators, he is still considered by many, as having taken aheroic stance against oppressive British imperialism.

At the time of the startof the Second World War, great divisions existed in the Indian independence movementabout whether to exploit the weakness of the British to achieve independence. Many feltthat any distinctions between the political allegiances and ideologies of the warringfactions of Europe were inconsequential in the face of the possibility of Indianindependence, and that it was immensely hypocritical of the British to condemnpro-democracy Indians for allying themselves with anti-democratic Axis forces when theBritish themselves showed so little respect for democracy or democratic reforms in India.

Though Bose did ally himself with the Axis powers, there is little to suggest heshared anything approaching their doctrines of racial superiority; instead it appears hewas motivated to join them largely out of political pragmatism i.e., on the logic "Theenemy's enemy is a friend". It is perhaps best to view his actions through the prism ofrealpolitik, though whether he genuinely believed that a Japanese-occupied Asia wouldrespect the neutrality of an independent India is unfortunately unknown.

Re-evaluation of Netaji

Netaji mural in Kolkata

Bose and theunit's heroism is still remembered among many Indians. It is also fondly remembered bysome Japanese and Indian historians who see Japanese efforts to support Bose assupporting the view that it was fighting a war on behalf of the oppressed peoples ofAsia.

The projection of Bose as a collaborator has been criticised by manycommentators, who claim that what many fail to see is the fundamentally oppressive natureof the British rule in India. Nothwithstanding the democratic credentials of Britain andthe United States in their own countries, they did not extend it to their colonies. Bosehimself claimed he could see little difference between the fundamentally oppressivenature of either British imperialism or Axis's fascism despite having lived in ColonialIndia, democratic Britain and Fascist Germany.

What many Western and Westerninspired scholars fail to see was that the Indian National Army, or Azad Hind Fauz (inHindustani) was an organization devoid of any of the divisive energies of provincialism,casteism, communalism, bigotry, parochialism, religious fundamentalism, orthodoxy due tosocial obscurantism and social intolerance, which in their wake, have more often thannot, caused harm to India's secular and socio-cultural fabric. However certain degrees ofcaste and religious prejudice existed. There was also significant dissent among thevolunteers of the Free Indian Legion of the Waffen-SS because the Germans organised theunit on meritocratic rather than caste and religious lines.

Gandhi called Bosethe "Patriot of Patriots" (Bose had called Gandhi "Father of the Nation"). He has beengiven belated recognition in India, by renaming Calcutta's civil airport and a universityin his name. Many of the ideals of Bose have been adopted in independent India like theadoption of Rabindranath Tagore's "Jana Gana Mana", the national song of the ProvisionalGovernment of Azad Hind as independent India's National Anthem, the adoption of Hindi asIndia's national language, the tricolour of India's national flag (inspired partly fromthe flag of the Azad Hind Fauz).

Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose InternationalAirport, located in Dum Dum, West Bengal, near Kolkata (Calcutta) is named after him.Bose was posthumously awarded the Bharat Ratna, India's highest civilian award in 1992,but it was later withdrawn in response to a Supreme Court of India directive following aPublic Interest Litigation filed in the Court against the "posthumous" nature of theaward. The Award Committee could not give conclusive evidence of Bose's death and thus itinvalidated the "posthumous" award.

Death
Bose is supposed to have died in aplane crash over Taiwan while flying to Tokyo. However, his body was never recovered, andconspiracy theories concerning his possible survival abound. One such claims that Boseactually died in Siberia, while in Soviet captivity.
Mr. Harin Shah, an Indianjournalist, visited Taipei and was shown a plane crash site (supposedly of Bose's plane).Photos can be found at [1]

However, in an Indian investigation into his death,Taiwan told the inquiry that Bose could not have died in a plane crash in the country,stating that there "were no plane crashes at Taipei between 14 August and 20 September1945." [2]

Despite this testimony three separate Indian governmentinvestigations have concluded that Bose died in the plane crash, although a fourthone-man board convened in 1999, the Mukherjee Commission, will not issue its conclusionsuntil 14 May 2005.

Important people met by Bose

http://experts.about.com/e/s/su/Subhash_Chandra_Bose.htm


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goldman
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:42
Hab kein Bock das auf englisch zu lesen...
zuviel Text. Fasse bitte mal dasWichtigste zusammen


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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 17:47
Hitler war doch inkontinent, wäre es taktisch nicht sinvoller gewesen er hätte zuerst dieRaststädte gebaut und danne rst die Autobahn?^^


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goldman
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Türken bei der SS

11.07.2006 um 18:10
"Hitler war doch inkontinent, wäre es taktisch nicht sinvoller gewesen er hätte zuerstdie Raststädte gebaut und danne rst die Autobahn?^^"

> lol. Wäre es nicht bessergewesen Du hättest zuerst die Schule besucht und dann hier gepostet?

Raststätte. ist ja keine Ansammlung von Städten


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