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Unruhen in der Ukraine - reloaded

79.904 Beiträge, Schlüsselwörter: Krieg, EU, Merkel, Obama, Ukraine, Krise, Putin, Krim, Maidan, Jazenjuk, Bandera + 11 weitere
Ukrop
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21.05.2015 um 10:57
Die Ukrainische Regierung hat sich gerade selbst zum Verbrecher erklärt.
Beitrag von Ukrop, Seite 3.533

Ich bin für eine NATO Intervention in der Ukraine zur Befreiung des Ukrainischen Volkes.


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21.05.2015 um 11:06
mich würde schon interessieren was in dem heise Artikel nun falsch dargestellt wurde.


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21.05.2015 um 11:12
Ukrop schrieb: 5, 6, 8 and 13 of the Convention on the protection of the rights of human rights and fundamental freedoms
Ist damit das Zusatzprotokoll 'Teil II Menschliche Behandlung' ff. von 1977 der Genfer Konvention gemeint?


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21.05.2015 um 11:18
@Aldaris
schätze das ist gemeint:
http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/treaties/html/005.htm
Article 5 – Right to liberty and security
Article 6 – Right to a fair trial
Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life
Article 13 – Right to an effective remedy


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21.05.2015 um 11:23
@Ukrop

Das gehört dann aber nicht zu den Genfer Konventionen, sondern zur Europäischen Konvention über die Menschenrechte.

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-agenda/sites/digital-agenda/files/Convention_ENG.pdf


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21.05.2015 um 11:34
@Aldaris
ok, danke für die Berichtigung.

Sie wollen also eine konkrete EU-Beitrittsperspektive, fühlen sich aber nicht an die Europäische Konvention für Menschenrechte gebunden.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2015-05/ukraine-forderung-eu-beitritt
Kurz vor dem EU-Osteuropagipfel hat der ukrainische Außenminister Pawlo Klimkin für sein Land eine klare EU-Beitrittsperspektive gefordert. "Wir möchten jetzt in Riga die konkrete Zusicherung erhalten, dass die Ukraine für eine künftige Mitgliedschaft in der Europäischen Union geeignet ist und die Chance hat, in Zukunft Beitrittskandidat zu werden", sagte der Politiker der Welt. Sein Land brauche dringend eine europäische Perspektive. "Das würde der Stimmung und dem Reformprozess in der Ukraine einen unglaublichen Schub verleihen."


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21.05.2015 um 11:40
@Ukrop
Du hast da was falsch verstanden


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21.05.2015 um 11:41
Im Moment nützt ihnen die Perspektive nix, weil sie sich quasi in einem Kriegszustand befinden.

Und da hindert es wohl eher. Wird sich zeigen was daraus wird, aber dafür müsste der Konflikt erstmal gelöst werden.


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21.05.2015 um 11:44
@jeremybrood
jeremybrood schrieb:Du hast da was falsch verstanden
klär mich auf bitte.


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21.05.2015 um 11:51
@Ukrop
Ist halt Juristensprache, kenne mich da auch nicht so aus. Soweit ich das verstanden habe, geht es darum dass die ukrainische Regierung auf einigen Territorien die Menschenrechte nicht garantieren kann weil sie nicht unter Kontrolle der ukrainischen Regierung stehen - es geht vermutlich auch um Schadensersatzansprüche


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21.05.2015 um 11:58
@jeremybrood
also hier ist von "Aktionen der Behörden, einschließlich der Exekutiven Behörden die dem Ukrainischen Gesetz unterstellt sind" die Rede.
Ukrop schrieb:The statement explains that some of the actions of the authorities, including law enforcement agencies, under the existing in Ukraine laws may conflict with the above rules, but they are dictated by the emergency situation in the East of the country and the need to combat terrorism, in particular the ATO
Mit anderen Worten der Ukrainische Geheimdienst darf jetzt im Rahmen der ATO beliebige Leute ohne Angabe von Gründen und ohne ein Verfahren ins Gefängnis werfen. So verstehe ich das.


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21.05.2015 um 12:03
Also handelt es sich um folgende Artikel:

Art. 5 - Right to liberty and security
Art. 6 - Right to a fair trial
Art. 8 - Right to respect for private and family life
Art. 13 - Right to an effective remedy

Dass man gerade die ersten drei Artikel im Quasi-Kriegszustand nicht mehr voll gewährleisten kann, überrascht mich jetzt nicht so wirklich. Natürlich wäre dann auch Missbrauch möglich, da muss man sehr vorsichtig sein. Bin mir noch nicht ganz klar darüber, wie ich das beurteilen soll. Grundsätzlich halte das aber für kritisch.


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21.05.2015 um 12:23
Russische Nchtwölfe alle ganz harmlos oder doch nicht?

http://www.n24.de/n24/Mediathek/videos/d/6672874/nachtwoelfe-kaempfen-fuer-prorussische-rebellen.html


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21.05.2015 um 12:37
@Aldaris
Der Vollständigkeitshalber habe ich die betroffenen Internationale Gesetze zusammengesucht.

Die Meldung lautete:
Ukrop schrieb:To approve the Statement of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine to derogate from certain obligations set by paragraph 3 of article 2, articles 9, 12, 14 and 17 of the International Convention on civil and political rights and articles 5, 6, 8 and 13 of the Convention on the protection of the rights of human rights and fundamental freedoms
Wir haben es hier also mit zwei Dokumenten zu tun.

1. International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)
http://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/ccpr.aspx


ICCPR Article 2, §3.

3. Each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes:

(a) To ensure that any person whose rights or freedoms as herein recognized are violated shall have an effective remedy, notwithstanding that the violation has been committed by persons acting in an official capacity;

(b) To ensure that any person claiming such a remedy shall have his right thereto determined by competent judicial, administrative or legislative authorities, or by any other competent authority provided for by the legal system of the State, and to develop the possibilities of judicial remedy;

(c) To ensure that the competent authorities shall enforce such remedies when granted.

Article 9

§1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. No one shall be deprived of his liberty except on such grounds and in accordance with such procedure as are established by law.

§2. Anyone who is arrested shall be informed, at the time of arrest, of the reasons for his arrest and shall be promptly informed of any charges against him.

§3. Anyone arrested or detained on a criminal charge shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorized by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release. It shall not be the general rule that persons awaiting trial shall be detained in custody, but release may be subject to guarantees to appear for trial, at any other stage of the judicial proceedings, and, should occasion arise, for execution of the judgement.

§4. Anyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings before a court, in order that that court may decide without delay on the lawfulness of his detention and order his release if the detention is not lawful.

§5. Anyone who has been the victim of unlawful arrest or detention shall have an enforceable right to compensation.


Article 12

1. Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.

2. Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.

3. The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.

4. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

Article 14


§ 1. All persons shall be equal before the courts and tribunals. In the determination of any criminal charge against him, or of his rights and obligations in a suit at law, everyone shall be entitled to a fair and public hearing by a competent, independent and impartial tribunal established by law. The press and the public may be excluded from all or part of a trial for reasons of morals, public order (ordre public) or national security in a democratic society, or when the interest of the private lives of the parties so requires, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice; but any judgement rendered in a criminal case or in a suit at law shall be made public except where the interest of juvenile persons otherwise requires or the proceedings concern matrimonial disputes or the guardianship of children.

§ 2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall have the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.

§ 3. In the determination of any criminal charge against him, everyone shall be entitled to the following minimum guarantees, in full equality: (a) To be informed promptly and in detail in a language which he understands of the nature and cause of the charge against him;

(b) To have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence and to communicate with counsel of his own choosing;

(c) To be tried without undue delay;

(d) To be tried in his presence, and to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing; to be informed, if he does not have legal assistance, of this right; and to have legal assistance assigned to him, in any case where the interests of justice so require, and without payment by him in any such case if he does not have sufficient means to pay for it;

(e) To examine, or have examined, the witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;

(f) To have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court;

(g) Not to be compelled to testify against himself or to confess guilt.
§ 4. In the case of juvenile persons, the procedure shall be such as will take account of their age and the desirability of promoting their rehabilitation.

§ 5. Everyone convicted of a crime shall have the right to his conviction and sentence being reviewed by a higher tribunal according to law.

§ 6. When a person has by a final decision been convicted of a criminal offence and when subsequently his conviction has been reversed or he has been pardoned on the ground that a new or newly discovered fact shows conclusively that there has been a miscarriage of justice, the person who has suffered punishment as a result of such conviction shall be compensated according to law, unless it is proved that the non-disclosure of the unknown fact in time is wholly or partly attributable to him.

§ 7. No one shall be liable to be tried or punished again for an offence for which he has already been finally convicted or acquitted in accordance with the law and penal procedure of each country.

Article 17

§ 1. No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his honour and reputation.

§ 2. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.


2. Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms
http://conventions.coe.int/treaty/en/treaties/html/005.htm
Article 5 – Right to liberty and security

§ 1. Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person. No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
a) the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
b) the lawful arrest or detention of a person for non-compliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
c) the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority on reasonable suspicion of having committed an offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
d) the detention of a minor by lawful order for the purpose of educational supervision or his lawful detention for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority;
e) the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;
f) the lawful arrest or detention of a person to prevent his effecting an unauthorised entry into the country or of a person against whom action is being taken with a view to deportation or extradition.
§ 2. Everyone who is arrested shall be informed promptly, in a language which he understands, of the reasons for his arrest and of any charge against him.
§ 3. Everyone arrested or detained in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 1.c of this article shall be brought promptly before a judge or other officer authorised by law to exercise judicial power and shall be entitled to trial within a reasonable time or to release pending trial. Release may be conditioned by guarantees to appear for trial.
§ 4. Everyone who is deprived of his liberty by arrest or detention shall be entitled to take proceedings by which the lawfulness of his detention shall be decided speedily by a court and his release ordered if the detention is not lawful.
§5. Everyone who has been the victim of arrest or detention in contravention of the provisions of this article shall have an enforceable right to compensation.

Article 6 – Right to a fair trial

§ 1. In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice.
§ 2. Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.
§ 3. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and cause of the accusation against him;
b) to have adequate time and facilities for the preparation of his defence;
c) to defend himself in person or through legal assistance of his own choosing or, if he has not sufficient means to pay for legal assistance, to be given it free when the interests of justice so require;
d) to examine or have examined witnesses against him and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him;
e) to have the free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

Article 8 – Right to respect for private and family life


§ 1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
§ 2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Article 13 – Right to an effective remedy

Everyone whose rights and freedoms as set forth in this Convention are violated shall have an effective remedy before a national authority notwithstanding that the violation has been committed by persons acting in an official capacity.



Sogar der Iran hat sich zu diesen Internationalen Normen verpflichtet.

An all das muss sich die Ukraine nun nicht mehr halten mit der Begründung: Es ist Krieg!

Aber Entschuldigung... Muss denn dieser Krieg, wenn es ihn gibt zum "totalem Krieg" gemacht werden?

Ich bin für eine NATO Intervention in der Ukraine zur Befreiung des Ukrainischen Volkes.


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21.05.2015 um 12:55
Ukrop schrieb:Ich bin für eine NATO Intervention in der Ukraine zur Befreiung des Ukrainischen Volkes.
Ob das so eine gute Idee wäre, wage ich zu bezweifeln. Das wird die NATO auch nicht tun. Zumindest wird sie nicht kriegerisch tätig, um die Regierung zu stürzen. Außerdem müsste man erstmal klar kriegen, was das ukrainische Volk genau möchte. Die ukrainischen Gemeinden hier, meine Frau ist halb Ukrainerin, stehen hinter der Regierung.

Wenn ich mir so andere Staaten anschaue, die in der Vergangenheit durch ein Tauziehen von West und Ost gespalten wurden, schätze ich mal, dass es auch mit der Ukraine soweit kommen wird.


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21.05.2015 um 13:03
Ukrop schrieb:An all das muss sich die Ukraine nun nicht mehr halten mit der Begründung: Es ist Krieg!
Bis jetzt ist das nur deine private Interpretation des Gesetzestextes.

Ausserdem - dieUkraine ist doch im Krieg - die ukrainische Regierung hätte schon vor einem Jahr in den betreffenden Gebieten den Notstand oder das Kriegsrecht ausrufen müssen


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