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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

18.903 Beiträge ▪ Schlüsselwörter: Bibel, Koran, Gottesleugner ▪ Abonnieren: Feed E-Mail

Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 09:11
@m_ember
Zitat von m_emberm_ember schrieb:al-chidr ist nicht online, lass dir Zeit, das Thema werden wir eh
nicht abschließend behandelt bekommen. Ich denke nicht, dass dies eine physikalische
Aussage ist und jemanden der das Blicken kann, muß man erst finden
.
Es muss keine physikalische Aussage sein. Habe dazu Artikel, die das
erklären, aber warten wir es ab, nicht das das Ego überhand gewinnt ;)


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 09:24
@bekchris

Once again ;)

Beispielsweise bedeutet im arabischen das Wort"Buka" -> "weinen"; der berühmte Tabii* Muhammad ibn Munkadir wurde "al-Bakka" gennant,da er wegen seiner besonders großen Gottesfurcht viel weinte....

Da wären wirwieder bei dem Wort "Bakka/Baka/Baca". Im Grundegenommen würde Mekka/Bekka übersetzt auch"Jammertal" bedeuten :)


*die Generation nach dem Propheten sav., die denPropheten zwar nicht mehr gesehen haben, aber die Gefährten des Propheten sav.


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 10:38
@ Freestyler

Wer sich aus der Barmherzigkeit ausklammert und sie nicht fürsich haben möchte, der ist selbst Schuld wenn er dafür bestraft wird.

Ichverstehe wohl, was Du sagen möchtest, aber mit diesem Satz hast Du bestätigt, was ichgeschrieben habe. Und ich meine das nicht böse.

Meine Aussage: "Strafend,Unterwerfung"

Deine Aussage: "Selbst Schuld an der Strafe" (Wenn nichtgetan wird, was verlangt ist.)

Bekannte u. Verwandte einer türkischen Freundin(Serife) hatten genau darüber mal ein Gespräch. Ich weiß nicht, ob Du nachvollziehenkannst, was der Vater von Serife sagte:

"Der Unterschied zwischen dem Islam unddem Christentum ist wie der Unterschied zwischen einem Jungen und einem Mädchen/ einemMann und einer Frau. Beide sind im Grunde gleich, sie sind Menschen, aber siekonzentrieren sich auf Unterschiedliches, haben jeweils andere Vorlieben und Fähigkeitenusw.
Gib einem Jungen und einem Mädchen einen Stock in die Hand und lass sie aufMetall schlagen. Während der Junge sich auf das Schlagen konzentriert, konzentriert sichdas Mädchen auf die Töne, die es verursacht."

Ich hab das "" gesetzt, wasnatürlich nicht heißt, dass ich den Wortlaut noch 100% in Erinnerung habe...;)

Und auch das Wort "Schlagen" soll nicht einladen zu einer Diskussion überGewalt etc....


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 11:02
@ Freestyler

Bzgl "Valley of Baca"

Englische Bibeln schreiben"Valley of Weeping". In der englischen Fußnote lässt sich dann finden, dass HEBRÄER"Valley of Baca" lesen.

Daraus jetzt zu stricken, das sei ein Eigenname, istziemlich voreilig.

Was auch bezeichnend ist:

Wenn Du in den bekanntenSuchmaschinen "valley of baca" eingibst, ist die erste Seite, die gefunden wird,ALLMYSTERY. *lol*

Weiterhin 2 oder 3 Links von MUSLIMEN, die behaupten, dass inder englischen Bibel "valley of baca" steht.

Es wird aber nicht einziger Link zuenglischen Bibeltexten angezeigt ...

Und wenn Du die englische Bibel durchsuchst,findest Du das, was ich oben geschrieben habe.

Das ist also definitif NICHT wahr.



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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 11:44
@Jeara
Zitat von JearaJeara schrieb:Daraus jetzt zu stricken, das sei ein Eigenname, ist ziemlichvoreilig.
Nochmal für dich aus der The Jewish Encylopedia

Theinterpretation of
the valley of Baca in the The Jewish Encylopedia is quiteinteresting, though it does not
provide a complete evidence and leaves the reader witha suggestion. Below is the full
quote.

Baca, The Valley Of: A valley mentionedin Psalms LXXXIV:7. Since
it is there said that pilgrims transform the valley into aland of wells, an old
translators gave to Baca, the meaning of a "valley of weeping";but it signifies rather
any valley lacking water. Support for this latter view is tobe found in II Samuel V:23
et seq.; I Chronicles XIV:14 et seq., in which the pluralform of the same word
designates a tree similar to the balsam tree; and it wassupposed that a dry valley could
be named after this tree. Konig takes Baca from theArabian Baka'a, and translates it
"lack of streams". The Psalmist apparently has inmind a particular valley whose natural
condition led him to adopt itsname.[5]

[5] The Jewish Encylopedia, Volume II,
Funk & Wagnalls Company,MDCCCCII, p. 415.
Zitat von JearaJeara schrieb:Weiterhin 2 oder 3 Links von MUSLIMEN, die behaupten,dass in der englischen Bibel "valley of baca" steht.
Ich weiß ja nicht obdu dir die Mühe gemacht hast auf eine Seite zu gehen, wo englische Ausgaben der Bibelvorhanden sind. Ok, geh bitte auf dieseSeite:

http://www.bibleserver.com/index.php (Archiv-Version vom 30.06.2007)

dann nimm dir folgendesExemplar:

NIV - New International Version und gib "Psalm 84" ein und dann auf"lesen" und schaue dir den Vers 6 an:

"6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca,they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools."

Hiernoch einen Screenshot



Der Link :)

undder Link.


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 11:52
@ Freestyler

Würdest Du bitte das Bild verkleinert nochmal reinsetzen ?
Ichwürde dann diesen Beitrag löschen, denn er sprengt gnadenlos den Thread.


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 11:53
ich kann es vorerst nicht verkleinern. Lass es doch so.


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:06
Also ohne Witz, ich hab das so in kener englischen Bibel gefunden.

Jetzt wirdsnatürlich anstrengend, weil wir an den Inhalt müssen:


The whole psalm focuseson God's sanctuary and how the writer loves to spend time there. The author is one of‘the Sons of Korah’ and internal evidence points to it being written after the buildingof the temple in Jerusalem by Solomon. Because of the psalm's focus on the sanctuary,there are several phrases which describe features of it, enabling us to evaluate theclaim that it is Mecca:


* v.1 - ‘How lovely is your dwelling place,O Lord Almighty!’
* v.3 - ‘... a place near your altar, O Lord Almighty...’
* v.4 - ‘Blessed are they who dwell in your house’
* v.7 -‘They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.’
* v.10- ‘I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God ...’

These fivepoints count heavily against the claim outlined above. Firstly (I am open to correctionon these points), I do not suppose that Muslims would accept the idea of Allah dwellingin the Ka'aba. I certainly am not aware of this way of thinking in Islam. On the otherhand, the Bible repeatedly mentions the temple in Jerusalem as God's dwelling place, eventhough he is not limited to a building. In 1 Kings 8:27, Solomon, on the completion ofhis great temple, said this:

'But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens,even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!'(NIV)

This makes it clear that the idea of God dwelling in the temple isfigurative and not that he is limited to one building. However, it shows clearly thatthis way of thinking is found in the Bible.

.....................

- theKa'aba is empty and certainly no humans dwell in it. Yet Psalm 84 mentions those whodwell in God's house. This makes no sense unless it is the Jerusalem temple, which hadrooms within its courts

- the pilgrims in Psalm 84 are certainly not on their wayto Mecca, as their destination is given as Zion. Mount Zion is one of the hills on whichJerusalem is founded. In the Bible Zion is often used synonymously withJerusalem

- there is no recognised function of doorkeeper for the Ka'aba. However,this was an official job at the Jerusalem Temple (2 Kings25:18).

...............

Mekka macht überhaupt keinen Sinn, wenn Du michfragst.



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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:14
Aber sicher macht Mekka einen Sinn! Schließlich wurde Mekka in der Frühzeit auch Bakkagennant und sowohl jüdische als auch christliche Gläubt pilgerten dort hin. Was ist soabwegig daran?
Ich habe dir auch gezeigt, dass es in der englischen Übersetzung derBibel als Eigenname behandelt wird.

Weiterhin befindet in der ELB - Rev.Elberfelder Bibel-Ausgabe zu dem Vers

"7 Sie gehen durch das Tränental4"

folgende Anmerkung:

- 4 o. Tal des Bakastrauchs; vielleicht ein bestimmtesTal in der Nähe von Jerusalem -

Damit wird eigentlich klar, dass es sich um einenOrt handeln muss, welcher nicht Symbolcharakter hat.

Also, warum ist Mekkaabwegig, wenn es vorher Bakka/Baka hieß?


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:16
Location Of Makkah

Makkah is at the intersection of latitude 21 to 25 degree northand longitude 39 to 49 degree east. It is set in a rugged landscape consisting mostly ofsolid granite, with rocks sometimes reaching 300 meters (1,000 feet) above seelevel.

Makkah is enclosed by the Valley of Abraham, which is surrounded by twonearby mountain ranges to the east, west and south. The northern range comprises theAl-Falaq and Qu'aqi'an mountains, while the southern range consists of Abu Hudaidahmountain to the west, Kuday to the south and Abu Qubais and Khindimah to thesouth-east.

There are three main entrances to Makkah: Al-Mu'allat (also known asAl-Hujûn), Al-Musfalah and Al-Shubaikah.

It is generally agreed that Al-Mu'allatincludes all areas which are higher than the Haram and Al-Musfalah covers all areas thatare lowers.

Ka'bah & Makkah In History

Edward Gibbon writes about theKa'bah and its existence before the Christian era in his book:

..... of blindmythology of barbarians - of the local deities, of the stars, the air, and the earth, oftheir sex or titles, their attributes or subordination. Each tribe, each family, eachindependent warrier, created and changed the rites and the object of this fantasticworship; but the nation, in every age, has bowed to the religion as well as to thelanguage of Mecca. The genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era: indescribing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, betweenthe Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered byall the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkishemperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before thetime of Mohammad.[1]

Diodorus Siculus was a Greek historian of 1st century BC whowrote Bibliotheca Historica, a book describing various parts of the discovered world. Thefollowing lines are the English translation of Greek quoted by Gibbon from the book ofDiodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicily) describing the 'temple' considered to be the theholiest in the whole of Arabia.

And a temple has been set-up there, which is veryholy and exceedingly revered by all Arabians.[2]

It is interesting to know thatClaudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a centuryafter Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptivegeographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. Heenumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.

Forexample, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix,must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasisof Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and nowMedayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions tohave had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema ofJob. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa ofStephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as ElMedina, the City of Cities.[3]

Apart from this a place called Macoraba is alsoshown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference[3]). G E von Grunebaum says:

Mecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he givesit allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.[4]

Makkah In The Scriptures

The Qur'ân talks about Bakkah (the older name ofMakkah) being the first house of worship appointed for mankind. It also addresses thisplace as Umm ul-Qurâ i.e., Mother of the Settlements.

Verily, the first House (ofworship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and aguidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example),the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. AndHajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah,those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); andwhoever disbelieves [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever ofAllah], then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns). [Qur'ân3:96-97]

The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with thepilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV):

1 How lovely is your dwellingplace, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; myheart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home,and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near youraltar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in yourhouse; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, whohave set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, theymake it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go fromstrength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORDGod Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look withfavor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousandelsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tentsof the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor andhonor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORDAlmighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

The interpretation of the valleyof Baca in the The Jewish Encylopedia is quite interesting, though it does not provide acomplete evidence and leaves the reader with a suggestion. Below is the fullquote.

Baca, The Valley Of: A valley mentioned in Psalms LXXXIV:7. Since it isthere said that pilgrims transform the valley into a land of wells, an old translatorsgave to Baca, the meaning of a "valley of weeping"; but it signifies rather any valleylacking water. Support for this latter view is to be found in II Samuel V:23 et seq.; IChronicles XIV:14 et seq., in which the plural form of the same word designates a treesimilar to the balsam tree; and it was supposed that a dry valley could be named afterthis tree. Konig takes Baca from the Arabian Baka'a, and translates it "lack of streams".The Psalmist apparently has in mind a particular valley whose natural condition led himto adopt its name.[5]

The translation of Arabian Baka'a as "lack of stream" seemsto throw some light on the nature of the valley before the appearance of the stream ofZam-Zam near Ka'bah which was a dry place with no vegetation whatsoever.

TheAnchor Bible Dictionary does not throw any light on it, albeit, there are somesuggestions in it too like the The Jewish Encylopedia. Below is the fullquote.

Baca, The Valley Of (PLACE): [Hebrew 'emeq habakka'], The valley of Baca(Psalms 84:1) is either a historical place name or a symbolical expression for "deepsorrow". The first part of Psalms 84:6 seems to mean that by "passing through theexperience of deep sorrow, righteous ones can make it the source of life." The Septuaginttranslated the phrase into Greek as "the valley of weeping". The word 'emeq "valley" hasthe root meaning of "deep", so the expression may mean "deep sorrow".

However,some have considered it as the "valley of the balsam tree" from the same word in pluralform found in 2 Samuel 5:24. This is based on the assumption that baka may be a"gum-exuding [weeping] tree". Another possibility is that the word beka'im (plural ofbaka) may mean "weeping wall-rocks" in the valley of Rephaim on whose tops David and histroops were waiting for the coming of the Philistine army passing through the valleybelow (2 Samuel 5:24). It seems safe to seek the meaning of baka in relation to thedripping water, since we often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis,such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galileearea, W of Meroth. It is also possible to understand beka'im as the place of "weepings"of the Philistine army for their defeat by David. After all these considerations, theexpression of "valley of baka" can best be taken as a symbolic expression "weeping" or"deep sorrow" which fits well in the context of Psalms 84:6.[6]

Theinterpretation of the valley of Baca as a "the valley of weeping" makes sense because ofthe distress which Hagar(P) underwent when she was left with Ishmael(P) in the barrendesert with no means of living.

The two interpretations of Baca, viz., "lack ofstream" and "the valley of weeping" appears to fit in the context of pilgrimage toBakkah, the older name of Makkah where the Ka'bah is situated. Ka'bah has been a place ofreverence by all Arabians before the Christian era as we have seen earlier.

AndAllah knows best!


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:16
Steht doch oben im Text.

Übrigens ist hebräische "baka" nicht "Bakka" oder"Mekka".


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:17
Lassen wir es einfach, Freestyler.

Das ist mir zu enstrengend. Keine Silbe zuden Einwänden oben, dafür nen neuer Text.

Echt, ich meins nicht böse, aber das istmir momentan zu nervig.


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:18
@Jeara

ich habe dir bewiesen, dass "Baka" das gleiche ist wie "bakka". Das wurdesogar sehr wahrscheinlich von dem arabischen ins hebräische übrnommen."Baka"="jammern/weinen", "Bakka"="jammern/weinen".

Nochmal fürdich:

Beispielsweise bedeutet im arabischen das Wort "Buka" -> "weinen"; derberühmte Tabii* Muhammad ibn Munkadir wurde "al-Bakka" gennant, da er wegen seinerbesonders großen Gottesfurcht viel weinte....

Da wären wir wieder bei dem Wort"Bakka/Baka/Baca". Im Grundegenommen würde Mekka/Bekka übersetzt auch "Jammertal"bedeuten


*die Generation nach dem Propheten sav., die den Propheten zwarnicht mehr gesehen haben, aber die Gefährten des Propheten sav.


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:21
@Jeara

ich habe doch aufgezeigt, dass es

- sowohl Tal ist, was nichtsymbolisch gemeint
- Pilgerstätte ist
- Mekka auch Baka hieß und es keinen anderenOrt gab, der diesen Namen trug.

Außerdem glaube ich nicht das du dir auch nur dieMühe gemacht hast meinen Text zu lesen oder auch nur zu verstehen...


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Der Koran hat Recht, die Bibel nicht?

29.06.2007 um 12:21
Ok wir lassen es. ;)


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