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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

53.525 Beiträge ▪ Schlüsselwörter: Polizei, Unfall, Model ▪ Abonnieren: Feed E-Mail

Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

06.03.2013 um 20:00
@CosmicQueen
es ist ja die Frage, ob Blut abgenommen wurde, das wurde ja in der Anhörung im Zusammenhang mit dem "Testosteron" gar nicht erwähnt. Darf man das einfach so, also die Polizei in S.A. Hier bräuchte man eine richterliche Anordnung und ob sie die bekommen haben, wenn man das in S.A. auch bräuchte? Oder darf man, bei einem Mordverdächtigen einfach so Blut nehmen? Fragen über Fragen, aber vielleicht hat ja jemand Ahnung und Erbarmen :D

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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

06.03.2013 um 20:07
@Tussinelda
Also ich habe keine Ahnung ob man Blut abnehmen darf oder nicht. Vielleicht nur, wenn man stichhaltige Beweise hat, das der Täter unter irgendeinem Drogenrausch steht. Aber wenn die da homöopatische Mittel gefunden haben, dürfte das wohl eher nicht der Fall sein denke ich mal.


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

06.03.2013 um 20:18
@CosmicQueen

http://www.looklocal.co.za/looklocal/content/en/pretoria-east/pretoria-east-news-general?oid=6948687&sn=Detail&pid=4980311&Oscar-undergoing-blood-tests
so Bluttest wurde gemacht laut diesem Artikel, nicht verwendet in der Anhörung, hm, jetzt müssen wir warten bis zum Prozess

 


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

06.03.2013 um 20:28
@Tussinelda
Da steht auch dass das normaler Standart ist, wenn ein Einzelner in so einem Fall verwickelt ist. Also das muss nichts heißen das da ein bestimmter Verdacht ist, sondern das ist wohl ein Routinecheck.


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

06.03.2013 um 20:41
so, ich habe jetzt recherchiert, um das mit der putativen Notwehr mal hier auf die Reihe zu kriegen, denn ich kenne mich da nicht so aus will aber gerne wissen, wie es ist.....ich hoffe, das beendet alle Unklarheiten, denn grundsätzlich haben, auch wenn das Self-defense oder private defense law in S.A. strikt ist, @surenas und @LarsWiewand recht

@FF
@surenas
@LarsWiewand
@Luminarah

Oscar Pistorius: Criminal Law 101
Feb 22nd, 2013 by Pierre De Vos.
Many people have been treating the bail hearing of Oscar Pistorius as if it were a trial, jumping to conclusions about whether he will be found guilty of murder based on the (often untested) allegations made by both sides at this hearing. But those who think they know what the outcome of this trial will be, are probably still going to change their minds several times before the trial is over. The only thing we can be relatively certain of is that specific legal principles will play a decisive role in this trial. It might be helpful to familiarise yourself with these principles before pontificating on the outcome of the trial.

Based on the version of events provided by Pistorius and his lawyers at the bail hearing, the disputed element of the crime will be fault. You can only be found guilty of murder if you unlawfully and intentionally killed another person. You can be found guilty of culpable homicide if you unlawfully and negligently killed another person.

There is no dispute that the killing of Reeva Steenkamp was unlawful as it would be impossible to argue that Pistorius acted in self-defence (or private defence, as it is known in law). You can only rely on self-defence to exclude unlawfulness if an attack on your life (or the life of another), on your property or other similar interest has commenced or is imminent. This is an objective test, so where no attack actually occurred, one cannot rely on self-defence to justify the killing of another person, which you thought was necessary to defend yourself. No such attack occurred or was imminent in this case. (Whether the common law should be developed in line with the values in the Constitution to restrict the right to kill others in defence of your property, is an interesting question, which I cannot discuss here.)

The question then is whether the accused had the requisite intention to kill another person. Intention must not be confused with motive. The person’s motive is the reason why he acted in the manner he did and is usually thought of as irrelevant for determining guilt. Motive can explain why an accused formed the intention to kill another person, but is separate from that intention.

The state can prove the direct intention by proving that the accused actually meant to kill the deceased. Evidence that the accused and the victim were involved in a stormy argument before the killing or that the accused had previously threatened the life of the victim could be important.

The state can also prove intention via the concept of dolus eventualis. This form of intention exists where the state can prove that while the accused might not have meant to kill the victim, he nevertheless foresaw the possibility and nevertheless proceeded with his actions. “Jub Jub” Maarohanye and his co-accused Themba Tshabalala were convicted of murder on the basis of dolus eventualis as the court found that they foresaw that their reckless driving in a built up area might lead to the killing on innocent bystanders.

Forensic evidence about the trajectory of the bullets and the other evidence at the crime scene could be important — especially if this contradicted the version of events put up by the accused. No such evidence has been led at the bail hearing.

In a case where the state has proven that an accused had shot and killed another person in his house in the absence of an attack on his life or property, it would be difficult to escape conviction for murder unless the accused is found to have acted in putative self-defence. Where an accused is found to have genuinely believed that his life was in danger and that he was using reasonable means to avert an attack on himself or his property, he may escape conviction for murder on the grounds that he lacked the requisite intention.

As intention is tested subjectively, the pivotal question would be what the actual state of mind of the accused was at the time when he killed the victim. If an accused genuinely but mistakenly believed that an attack was imminent or that his life was in danger, the court will find that he lacked the intention to be convicted of murder.

An interesting case in which this issue came up was that of S v De Oliveira in which the then Appellate Division had to decide whether Mr De Oliveira, who shot and killed a man in the driveway of his house, genuinely (but wrongly) believed that he was acting in self defence and therefore lacked the intention to commit murder.

Mr De Oliveira had not testified as to his state of mind at the time of the shooting. Because he did not testify the court had to rely on other evidence that could reflect on his state of mind. It commenced from the premise “that no reasonable man in the circumstances in which the appellant found himself would have believed that his life or property was in imminent danger”. Reading between the lines, and taking note of the rather racist references in the case to “black men” as the victims of this crime, Mr De Oliveira might well have killed the victim in his driveway because was black and he harboured racist views about black people.

In any event, as there was no evidence of any noise of glass breaking coming from inside the house, and as the evidence of other witnesses suggested that the victim was not close to the house, the court concluded that Mr De Oliveira could not have acted in putative private defence. Even though the trial judge held that Mr. De Oliveira had “a marked dullness of intellect” and had “not been blessed with more than a comparatively low level of intelligence”, the court could not find that this alone would indicate that he genuinely believed that he acted in self-defence because the accused did not himself testify in his own defence. In the absence of personal testimony about his state of mind:

One would normally impute to a person in the position of the appellant (in the absence of any evidence by such person as to his state of mind at the relevant time) a state of mind akin to that of a reasonable man. In a given case, however, proved facts or circumstances may exist which would justify a different conclusion. In the present instance there are none…. Even from someone with the appellant’s limited intellectual capacity one would prima facie not expect a reaction different from that of the reasonable man, having regard to the particular circumstances of the present matter. In the circumstances there was prima facie proof that the appellant could not have entertained an honest belief that he was entitled to act in private defence. The appellant failed to testify as to his state of mind and to refute this prima facie proof. His silence must weigh heavily against him.

The De Oliveira case suggests that if the state could make out a prima facie case that a reasonable person in Oscar Pistorius’s position could not honestly have believed that he was acting in self-defence, that a defence of putative self-defence would not easily succeed unless Pistorius himself testified as to his state of mind.

If this defence of putative private defence succeeds, that would not, however, be the end of the matter. A court could still find that a reasonable person would have foreseen that his actions would have caused the death of a person and would not have proceeded with his actions despite foreseeing the consequences. In such a case the accused can be convicted of culpable homicide. In other words if a court finds that a reasonable person would not have proceeded with the conduct, then he would be found guilty of culpable homicide.

As I pointed out at the start, it is rather nonsensical from a legal point of view, to speculate at this point whether Pistorius will be found guilty of murder. None of us know. This is not going to stop people speculating about his guilt or innocence, but such speculation might have to do more with the morbid fascination of people with the case than with any legally responsible analysis.

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/oscar-pistorius-criminal-law-101/ (Archiv-Version vom 01.03.2013)


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

06.03.2013 um 20:43
auch ansonsten eine sehr gute Analyse der Möglichkeiten, basierend auf dem Recht in S.A. mit Beispielen


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 00:22
@Tussinelda

Es schwierig sein wird, putative Notwehr geltend zu machen. Aber schauen wir mal, was passiert. Gute Nacht!


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 06:12
@whatsgoinon
ja, das wird schwierig, ich gehe nicht mal davon aus, dass das die Strategie der Verteidigung wird, obwohl, die Schlafzimmertür zur Treppe war (laut Aussage) abgeschlossen, er trug keine Prothesen......hm....kann es in dem Fall für oder gegen ihn sprechen (state of mind), dass er sich nicht vergewisserte, wo sich Reeva befand.....naja, Juni ist ja nicht mehr soooo lang :D


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 06:33
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/03/oscar-pistorius-home-where-girlfriend-was-fatally-shot-may-be-evidence-in-the-trial/ (Archiv-Version vom 06.03.2013)
oder doch später, im letzten Viertel des Jahres
Pistorius will appear in the Pretoria Magistrate’s Court again in June, but it is unlikely that the trial will start before the last quarter of the year.
Prosecutors will likely ask for another postponement when the case resumes and will only serve an indictment on Pistorius, which will outline the exact charges against him, when they are confident they have all the evidence they would need to secure a conviction. A High Court trial date will only be determined once the indictment has been served.

auch interessant, dass die Verteidigung behauptet, sie hätten die Tür noch nicht untersuchen dürfen, die Polizei dies aber bestreiten.....


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 06:38
hier noch etwas
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/06/world/africa/pistorius-image/index.html

da steht dann zum Schluss:
However his critics viewed him, even the friends who criticized Pistorius' actions defended him.
"He was a good guy," Lerena said, "could have fun with his mates ... but never was he reckless and ever in my company aggressive toward anyone."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jill-shaw-ruddock/oscar-pistorius-trial_b_2801572.html
What is it about human nature that we want to think the worst and believe someone is guilty until proven innocent? We can't help ourselves as we obsessively watch and track with eager anticipation every detail as to how the good and the great fall from grace. Do we as human beings begrudge meteoric success or is it simply the reversibility that satisfies our sense of symmetry? The faster they rise, the more self satisfied we are when they fall.

The verdict of this trial in Pretoria will ultimately reveal more about us than it will about the Paralympian champion. If proven innocent, those of us who assumed his guilt will have to look in the mirror and question just why we jumped to the conclusion that a young man born with no legs to overcome adversity and become the first double amputee to compete in the Olympics would kill his beautiful girlfriend on Valentine's Day night.


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 06:56
@Tussinelda

Danke für den ausführlichen und differenzierten Artikel.

Es ist klar, warum die Verteidigung von Anfang an auf putative Notwehr abgehoben und ihre Version des Tatablaufs um diese Strategie herumgestrickt hat: Das ist unter den Umständen wohl einer der wenigen Ansätze mit einer gewissen Erfolgsaussicht.


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 07:00
@KonradTönz1
denkst Du wirklich, es läuft darauf hinaus?
Er kann sich ja schlecht auf putative Notwehr berufen und dann sagen, er war quasi unzurechnungsfähig und hat deshalb nicht überprüft, wo sich Reeva befindet......oder?
Die Verteidigung sprach ja eher von fahrlässiger Tötung


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 07:05
Zitat von CosmicQueenCosmicQueen schrieb:@diegraefin
Aber selbt Reeva hat nichts bei ihren Freunden von einer Aggressivität verlauten lassen. Also das mit dem Anabolika ist nur eine Spekulation von dir, denn gefunden wurden Steroide, die ja wohl potzenfördernd sein sollen.
Die wenigsten Frauen reden über sowas, wenn sie noch mit dem Mann zusammen sind. Dann müssten sie ja auch rechtfertigen vor den Freunden, WARUM sie noch mit ihm zusammen sind. Und wenn der Partner auch noch eine berühmte Ikone im eigenen Land ist, wird man sich gleich 3x mehr noch überlegen, wem man sowas über ihn anvertrauen würde. Außerdem haben solche Männer ja nicht nur diese eine (aggressive) Seite - ohne Reiz-Auslöser sind sie ja nicht aggressiv, sie gehen halt nur schneller an die Decke als normalerweise.


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 07:06
@diegraefin
es wurde ja eh von den Freunden und auch Reeva gesagt, dass sie vermeidet über ihn oder ihre Beziehung zu reden.....


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 07:57
Zitat von TussineldaTussinelda schrieb:Die Verteidigung sprach ja eher von fahrlässiger Tötung
So wie ich das verstehe, kann "Putative Notwehr" das Motiv bzw. der Anlass der Tat sein und die Tat selbst das Delikt der fahrlässigen Tötung erfüllen. Beides schließt sich nicht aus sondern ergänzt sich. Und mit der Behauptung, O.P. habe einen Einbrecher hinter der Toilettentür vermutet ist die Strategie doch klar vorgegeben.


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 09:05
http://m.focus.de/panorama/welt/regierung-in-suedafrika-bestuerzt-familie-pistorius-hortet-dutzende-waffen_aid_934470.html


Auch das Video ist interessant.


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 09:14
@Luminarah


Dem Bericht zufolge besitzt er neben einer Zulassung für die 9mm-Pistole weitere Lizenzen für sechs Schusswaffen.
----------------------------------------

er besitzt schon die waffen, illegal.

Die zulassung dafür hat Pistorius erst beantragt nach dem Mord, hab ich in einer anderen Zeitung gelesen.

Einmal heißt es vor dem Mord, einmal nachher beantragt


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 09:37
@KonradTönz1
ah, ok, das lass ich mir dann so wie Du sagst noch einmal durch den Kopf gehen


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 09:53
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/435310/20130214/south-africa-crime-guns.htm

Nearly six million guns are currently in circulation in South Africa, with just under half of them in the hands of criminals and the others in the hands of civilians who don't trust the police to stop the crooks. In total, one person in every eight has a weapon........

BBC reporter Pumza Fihlani said divisions are invisible too and that those with something to protect feel they must take matters into their own hands to do so.

"South Africa has one of the highest crime rates in the world and is considered as one of the most violent and unequal societies.

"Many here feel that the police are losing the fight against crime and those with money or valuables feel compelled to protect them at any cost," she said.

A black market in firearms is fueled by the difficulty in getting a gun licence from police. The bureaucratic procedure can take years and is heavily criticised by gun groups. Getting a gun depends on whether the constabulary thinks you need it, not how vulnerable you feel. The result is piles of black market unlicensed firearms - often in the wrong hands and fostering still further paranoia........

Waffen sind wohl ein grundsätzliches Problem in S.A., nicht nur das von O.P.
und es wurde wohl auch nur Munition gefunden, für die er keine Lizenz hatte
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/oscar-pistorius-unlicensed-ammunition-police_n_2722358.html


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Oscar Pistorius, das Model, der Valentinstag und das war dann Notwehr

07.03.2013 um 09:54
man kann auch keine Lizenzen beantragen, wenn man unter Mordverdacht steht und der Besitz von Waffen vom Gericht untersagt wurde......


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